Episode 007 (Bonus): Unpacking Pandemic Racism, Feat. Paola Mardo and Ahmed Ali Akbar

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Transcript

CATHY: Hey, it's Cathy.

CATHY: I'm here in Brooklyn, where we're close to the peak of this public health crisis.

CATHY: People are literally dying. Healthcare workers are running out of equipment to protect themselves. I - I don't know what else to say. It's - it's truly a life and death situation.

CATHY: And on top of all this, we've seen over 1000 reported cases of anti-Asian racism in the States, in just the past few weeks.

CATHY: So this bonus episode is just me checking in. Our producer, James, and I hopped on the phone with a couple of our podcast friends, Paola Mardo from Long Distance and Ahmed Ali Akbar from See Something, Say Something.

CATHY: And we used this time to unpack some of this, share some stories we've been working on, and just try to support each other moving forward.

CATHY: Before we go into that conversation, I want you to know that Self Evident is also reporting on hate crime during the pandemic. And we want to hear from anyone who has been stepping up to fight racism in their communities.

CATHY: So if you — or someone you know is — an Asian-American worker facing anti-Asian racism on the front lines. Or someone who's pushing back against anti-immigrant violence and trying to mobilize Asian Americans to take action. Or someone who's just plugged into a local WeChat group where your community is discussing how to respond to xenophobia.

MUSIC: Self Evident theme music (a playful hip-hop beat) begins

CATHY: Please get in touch with us so we can listen. And chat with you about what it takes to fight this. You can email community@selfevidentshow.com Okay, here's my conversation with Paola, Ahmed and James.

MUSIC: Theme music fades out

CATHY: This is Self Evident. I'm Cathy Erway, and this episode is a little bonus we put together to talk about COVID-19 and Asian-Americans. Specifically anti-Asian racism and xenophobia.

CATHY: So, I'm talking with James Boo, one of our producers at Self-Evident. Hi!

JAMES: Hey, greetings from my half open closet.

(Cathy and Ahmed laugh)

CATHY: And Paola Mardo, host and producer of the podcast Long Distance.

PAOLA: Hello from LA.

CATHY: Hey!

PAOLA: Hi!

CATHY: And Ahmed Ali Akbar, host and producer of See Something Say Something.

AHMED: Hey, I'm saying hi from Michigan. My parent's home in Michigan.

CATHY: Just thank you so much for taking the time to talk today. I know it's a stressful and busy time for many. So maybe we should just start off by just saying how everyone's doing physically, and mentally, and sharing a little bit about what your daily life is like.

CATHY: Ahmed, let's start with you, like, so what's going on?

AHMED: So, I'm usually in New York. I came to Michigan because I am - or I was already like a self isolated freelancer.

CATHY: Mhm.

AHMED: I was always home anyway, like, I very quickly went into self isolation very early.

AHMED: My father, on the other hand, is a doctor. He works in hospital systems. He still has to see patients. Around this time last year he was like, "I had some major surgery," so, like, he has some potential, like, comorbidities or whatever.

AHMED: So, I - the idea was really stressing me out. So as soon as we, you know, had enough quarantine and felt like we could devise like a safe way of getting there that didn't involve much exposure, we got in the car and we came to Michigan.

AHMED: And I've been here, and I kind of joke, people are like, "Oh, I'm so tired of quarantine," which I am, but it's kind of also an upgrade because, like, as a freelancer, I'm usually, like, working from home alone. And now I have, like,, my dad and my wife and my uncle and we all, like, eat together.

AHMED: Everyone's going a little stir crazy, but it is thankfully, like, you know, we're spending a lot of time together. Like as a writer, uh, I'm not getting a lot of writing done, like mentally it's taxing.

AHMED: So I'm just kind of like keeping it easy, exercising, cooking, hanging out with family, doing my job, like, you know, uh, that's - that's - that's pretty much what I can get done during this time.

CATHY: Paola, how about you? You're in LA?

PAOLA: Yeah, I'm in Los Angeles, and it's been a really interesting couple of weeks, actually. Mid-March. I came down with some mild symptoms, and I - I was a little worried because my partner - so, I live with my partner - and his father, who's much older and is very high risk for COVID-19, he is staying with us, so because he's here, I was like, okay, I want to take extra precaution. I don't know if I have it.

PAOLA: But I called my doctor, and they told me, you know, your symptoms are mild. It could be a cold, it could be allergies, but because we're in a public health emergency, you should quarantine. So I self isolated in a room, um, but like Ahmed, I'm also a self isolating freelancer, so I'm very used to staying home.

PAOLA: And staying away from people as much as possible. But, um, living in a room for about, I think it was 18 days was really crazy. I mean, I'm lucky my symptoms never got worse. I had an itchy throat, uh, and a cough. And the cough was really persistent, and I never had a fever, which was good, but I had a slightly higher temperature than usual. But it went away in a week.

PAOLA: And then I just isolated it a little bit more after that. So, I was able to finally go out a couple of days ago. So, that was kind of nice.

 (laughs)

I've never been more thankful to honestly breathe and, like, be able to walk around, you know, outside of a room - to leave a room.

CATHY: Well, I'm so glad you're feeling better.

PAOLA: Yeah, yeah.

CATHY: And James, how about you?

JAMES: The irony here I think is that for the first six weeks to seven weeks of 2020, I was actually sick and just have never left really. And so, I also was used to being in my room almost all the time anyway, unless I had to go out and record something.

JAMES: And it's really intense in New York, especially - as you might guess. It, in a way, once everyone got locked down is really weird because I've never socialized this much in like the past six months.

JAMES: Because everyone wants to get on a phone call or a video call or play board 0games, which I usually have to try really hard to get people to do. And, and so it's just this weird inversion of my normal life and maybe people in our lifestyles are a little more able to weather the change a little bit, and hopefully we can use that to help others.

JAMES: So I've just been trying to check in with my neighbors, make sure everyone gets what they need, and try to make the show.

CATHY: Yeah. And you know, as for me, I'm in Brooklyn with my husband and dog. And I recently reported on restaurants, Chinese restaurants in New York City. I heard a lot of stories from the activists there, so we wanted to basically get together and talk about this really, really upsetting and disturbing rise in hate crimes against Asian-Americans.

CATHY: Paola, I know you were talking about an incident on your show, Long Distance. Can you tell us about that?

PAOLA: Yeah. What happened was - I, you know, I'd already been home most of the time, but the stay at home orders in LA weren't yet announced. I wanted to go out one more time because it was actually my partner's birthday a couple of days later, and I wanted to make a cake.

PAOLA: So, I mean, I'm just going out on, like, you know, regular errand. I'm like, okay, I just need a couple little things. And my partner's like, hey, do you want to wear a mask when you go out? 'Cause you know, my dad's here. Maybe we should just , like, be safe.

PAOLA: So, I said, okay, yeah. Yeah, I'll wear a mask. I was totally fine with that. So I go to, it's called Eagle Rock Plaza, which is a mall in the neighborhood of Eagle Rock here in LA. It's very Filipino. They have a Seafood City, which is like a Filipino grocery store, and they have a Jollibee. They have a Chowking, like, and then all these other, like, Filipino businesses.

PAOLA: So I felt safe, you know, and I wasn't even thinking about anti-Asian anything. And when I was there, there were people in masks. Not a lot, but I saw some kids. I saw an older lady, so I was like, okay, I'm not like the only one.

PAOLA: It was when I walked out that I heard this woman's voice, and it was very, just kind of shrill and whiny, and I can't, like, forget it. Like I'm - I'm walking, minding my own business. And I hear a woman say, oh my god, China brought the virus here.

PAOLA: And I'm like, I look around, I'm like, I'm the only person. A little bit behind me, and she was with a man.

PAOLA: I'm like, was that her? Did, did she say that? Was that for me? Like all these thoughts.

CATHY: Uh huh.

PAOLA: And to me it's like, you know, I've, you know, I've been called like Chun-Li or like weird, like Filipino exotic things. So, you know, you're used to, as an Asian American, honestly, hearing just weird things from like non-Asians about what you look like or who you are.

PAOLA: But to hear something like that at this time was really jarring. So I'm like, okay, I need to get to my car. So let me walk across this woman 'cause it's that way. And maybe if I walk across, I'll find out if it was really her. Maybe she'll say something else. I really felt like she would.

PAOLA: And lo and behold, I take two steps, her direction, not even near her. She literally jumped back and was like, oh my god, please don't give me the virus.

CATHY: Oh my god.

PAOLA: And like it was - I just had nothing to say. I looked at her. We, like, had this like staring contest, and like, but I just. A, I didn't know what to say. B, I didn't want to escalate it, honestly. And I know it will be very honest with you, like she was a much bigger woman than me. And she had someone else with her, like all these thoughts.

PAOLA: And also like, well, she already thinks I am Chinese. I am not. She already thinks China brought the virus here, so what can I say that will make her change her mind? Like, she doesn't know. I live with someone who is high risk. She doesn't know that's why I'm wearing this mask, like all these other things.

PAOLA: So, I walked away, literally shaking, and I don't normally, honestly, share things like that. Because you know, as an Asian American, you're just used to being looked at as an other, you know, perpetual foreigner, whatever.

PAOLA: But I think in this moment I was like, I need to share this. Like people need to know. This literally happened to me in a space where I thought I was safe, and she was not Filipino, not Asian, but she was a woman of color, which shocked me even more.

CATHY: Like all these incidents we've been hearing about are, you know, a lot of them are much more violent than that, but they are, they do hinge on that, that same belief that, like, okay, you're responsible for this, and I'm gonna threaten you somehow.

JAMES: You know, just looking through reports and taking New York, this is the place where we had an incident just recently where it looks like from the video, a guy threw acid on a woman's face and it was premeditated, right?

JAMES: He was sitting on the steps of waiting for her to come out to take her garbage out and then threw this thing over her head and then ran away. And I'm really, really, really worried about how extreme it's going to get.

JAMES: But they really are on the same spectrum. And, I think it's important to hear stories like what Paola experienced because it's part of a continuum, right? And all these incidents are related and tap into the same racism and violence.

CATHY: Right, and have you - have you experienced that, James?

JAMES: So in 2006 I was in foreign exchange student in St. Petersburg, Russian Federation. And, the very short story is they have a huge racism and hate crime problem. And a gang of neo-Nazis tried to stab me to death, and then I got away and was not hurt.

PAOLA: Oh my gosh.

JAMES: And then they killed an Indian doctor, who was not lucky enough to get away. And then I had to leave the country. And when the lockdown became serious, before some of these reports started coming out, I actually - I bought a baseball bat.

JAMES: It was basically the first thing I did.  (laughs) Um.  And I'm not, like, to the point where I literally walk outside and carry a baseball bat with me. But, this was an experience I had with anti-immigrant hate crime, and it was very extreme. And there are a lot of common threads.

CATHY:  Well, you know, speaking of this not being a novel thing, I guess, Ahmed, how do you feel about this spike in hate crime? Does it effect Muslim Americans? Do you feel it affects you?

AHMED: So, you know, I'll just. Before - before I can answer that question, for me, like Muslim Americans does include a lot of non Asian groups, including black Americans, Arab Americans, white converts. Obviously, like, Muslim Americans have been targets of hate crimes, you know, throughout my, you know, dire teenage to adult life.

AHMED: And there's been spikes, right? There've been moments in which there was spikes in hate crimes and not, and one of the major spikes was Donald Trump's election.

AHMED: You know, I think even beyond just Muslims, I think in general, hate crimes have spiked since, uh, he has taken office. And it's particularly, I think, exacerbated by the way that he has targeted groups in his speeches.

AHMED: And I think he is doing that again in this case where he continues to call it the Chinese coronavirus or the Chinese virus, whatever, you know, he kind-of calls it. He keeps on kind-of bringing the Asian-ness of it to the forefront, and I think that's having an effect.

AHMED: South Asian-Americans, which is the community of Asian-Americans that I would claim, have not really anecdotally - I can't really speak on a research level. I have not heard of anyone experiencing that. I do have a lot of family members who are treating patients very often in - in hotspots. So, like, that feels like my main kind-of exposure on a personal level to people who would be exposed to that.

AHMED: They're just experiencing like a lot of people struggling with the fear of, you know, dying or like infecting their family members. But the other thing that I will say is that I think a big fear and something that I've been reporting on is the death element for Muslim Americans. Because we have a sort of strong procedure for burying people.

AHMED: You, very quickly, the body is washed by co-believers. It's not cremated. There are places in which governments are insisting on cremation or - or, like, they're implying mass burials. Like, even in New York, this was sort of suggested that there would be like these, you know, kind of park burials, uh, trenches, and like people being put in trucks to like chill out, like literally let the bodies chill out cause there's not enough spaces in the morgues.

AHMED: So I'm doing some reporting on some of that and like how American Muslims are dealing with the burial aspect because it is, um, the way in which the, like, you know, the government is dealing with it, you know, understandably, it's chaotic, but it can like sort of be troubling for people who obviously only get one chance to say goodbye to their loved ones. And they want it to be done right.

CATHY: When you mentioned that you have a lot of family members who are working as medical workers and you're worried about them, I'm actually wondering if it needs to be, like, stated, that Asian-Americans are overrepresented in a lot of the medical fields.

PAOLA: What I find interesting about that is, you know, there are, and I think I've read this, a good number of people in healthcare are immigrants. Filipino Americans actually have a long history of coming to America to work in the healthcare industry as nurses and in other healthcare positions.

PAOLA: And for Long Distance, I've been talking to a number of Filipino Americans in health care, and a couple of them have told me, like, they don't face any racism at work where they're needed, you know.?

PAOLA: But it's when they go out in the street and people see them, like a couple of them have experienced racism on the street, you know? And that's, to me, it's like, it's horrifying, and it's horrible for them. Like, this is literally, their job, to take care of you, and then you are treating them this way.

PAOLA: Um, a woman I spoke with, she's actually a nurse in New York, and she said that she and a coworker, also a Filipino nurse, they were at some store picking up supplies or something like that. And, um, a man had come up to them and yelled chino, and then ran away. It was just bizarre.

CATHY: Yeah.

PAOLA: So I think, I really do feel like personally, me, I am, I guess, lighter skinned than, you know, my other Filipino friends who tend to be a little bit darker. Maybe with a mask on, maybe I look more quote unquote Asian or Chinese. I think you really see people's biases and like what they think Asian or Chinese looks like. And the way they're reacting to this and, and it's - it's ugly.

AHMED: Cathy, on your point about healthcare workers. I mean, I think a lot of this violence that's happening is also structural in the sense that, like, you know, Trump has opened up temporary visas for foreign healthcare workers in a way that he was restricting in the past. Essentially. Like, you know, trying to, kind of sacrifice immigrant workers, seeing those lives as, you know, less valuable in a way.

AHMED: And then also of course, like it's not just healthcare workers. It is like, you know, this huge population of Asian Americans who are working in groceries and providing food. And those people are also continually exposing themselves and getting very little protection from the government.

AHMED: So, there is sort of, I think the structural violence happening against people of color and Asian-Americans are also part of it. And also, like, for instance, in Michigan, where I am, there's like a huge rate of infection amongst black Americans, and in my anecdotal experience of, like, my mosque, for instance. The people that have COVID are all black Muslims. So it's - it's - it's a very intersectional and it's, it's really revealing, I think a lot of racial and class fault lines.

CATHY: It is revealing existing ones. Yeah. Yeah.

JAMES: Every day I watched the update from Governor Cuomo, which some folks really like, and I have different feelings about. Mixed feelings, frustrated feelings. But particularly, there was one moment in a recent update where he's now talking about, okay, we're going to increase testing to black and brown communities in New York City.

JAMES: And it's like, great, great, great. And he kind of hammers this line, which is we need to find out why. We need to find out why black and Latino communities are being hit harder by this virus, and we need the data.

JAMES: And I'm just kind of like, I don't know. I kind of know what I - you know, on paper, yes, you want data, but it's like, you pretending not to know why these communities who are under resourced, discriminated against, systemically disadvantaged. They have less space. They have less of an, of an option to not go to work. You know, so many things that have piled up over the years.

JAMES: And, it's just really painful to see someone in charge, essentially seeing the party line is like, we don't know, we better find out.

CATHY: You know, I - I recently wrote a piece in Grub Street about Chinese American restaurant workers and how they feel targeted. And it's - it's just so sad. I mean, there's people, who just, a lot of restaurants didn't have to close.

CATHY: But they did because people are just fearful for their life, and like on top of the business problems and everything, you know, of people not coming to the restaurant, I guess, think that eating Chinese food will make them sick or something like that. You know, frontlines is taking on all sorts of meetings right now.

AHMED:  Amongst my friend group, there's a lot of solidarity trying to order out from, because we understand that these are like a targeted institution that matters to many of us. You know, even if I'm not, you know, Chinese. Like, Chinatown is like an amazing, uh, like in New York is like an amazing center of - of - of culture that is important to preserve and protect and...

CATHY:  Totally, yeah.

PAOLA: Seattle actually got hit really early on. They have - there's a place called the International District, which is home to their Asian American community, home to a lot of Chinese restaurants, Filipino restaurants, ets, and Asian businesses in general.

PAOLA: I was hearing from folks there that they were feeling people stopped coming to their Chinatown - or people started, people stopped going to international district as early as January.

CATHY: Right

PAOLA: They actually created a Facebook group to support the local community restaurants to try and get people to keep going. And, someone started one here in LA for Filipino small businesses, as well. I know people are doing delivery, but not everyone can do that. Some people are trying to order takeout, but you know, some people are just afraid to go outside.

PAOLA: So I think it's really challenging to find ways to support these businesses. Although, and I think you mentioned this in your article. Someone said, Hey, just buy a gift card. That's - that's something you can do from home and you don't have to get food or anything. And that helps them in some way.

CATHY: I personally feel very fortunate in the midst of all this, you know, I haven't like lost my job. And I also, I pass for white, so I don't have that every day fear. Although, I've internalized the fear that I have for my family members who, who are very much Asian. Um, but what can I do? And like, how can I even help? It's actually really hard to figure out what is the right thing to do right now. And it's constantly changing. So it's just a completely...whirlwind of stress.

AHMED: My parents, their favorite restaurant was the spiciest Chinese restaurant in town. And they became like buddies with the people who run the restaurant. And so much so that that restaurant now offers Halaal options.

AHMED: So like people go there, and they can just be like, oh, I want Halaal meat. And they can, like, offer stuff off the Halaal menu. So it's like a long relationship, in this like little town in Michigan. And my dad, I'm very worried about him, so I'm like, make sure you wear gloves, make sure you - don't touch anybody, like all this stuff.

AHMED: So we ordered it from that restaurant while we were here, and I was like, oh, are they going to get harassed at their business? He was like - he was like, they just were operating like normal. I guess it's fine.

AHMED: I was like, okay, well I guess they're doing okay if they're not as stressed as like, you know, all the other restaurants I've been to they're, they're popular enough. They have all these Halaal customers that are still gonna go there no matter what.

AHMED: No, it's kind of like a, like a happy - like a funny, happy story for me. It's a great restaurant in Michigan. In Saginaw, Michigan.

CATHY: Oh my god.

AHMED: In my opinion.

CATHY: That sounds amazing.

JAMES: Ahmed, when you say that to me, it just like is another data point for my, just casual theory that just like Chinese food is all you really need.

JAMES: We're now going to be swimming in all these conversations about being afraid of China and like, villain - villainizing China and kind of to fight back against xenophobia and all this stuff. It's, like, the conversation I want to have is like, can we just recognize that obviously Chinese food is just the best. And I don't mean to say anything negative about biryani or sisig or...

CATHY: It's not a zero sum game.

JAMES:  ...Anyone's favorite foods on this call from their - from their, uh, you know, childhood.

Yeah. Chinese food.

AHMED: My sister agrees with you.

JAMES: It's like, it brings everyone  together.

CATHY: food, period, is like, the greatest, sort of, gateway to, to talking about anything, uh, hopefully making any progress here.

CATHY: But, you know, I'm - I'm curious actually, if Ahmed has any thoughts on where do we go from here after there's been clearly this Asian-American hate crime surge? And you know, you've had waves of it in your communities, as you mentioned.

CATHY: What is helpful? What can we hope to see come out of this?

AHMED: Yeah, well, I mean, I think part of the thing about the waves is that people tend to forget them and want to assimilate. You know, like there have been anti-Chinese, anti-Indian hate crimes through, like, the beginning of the 1900s you know?

AHMED: And, I think our communities forget about them because we - we don't necessarily build bonds with other communities that are under structural threat by the United States government um, in many cases.

AHMED: And I think what Muslim Americans tried to do after 9/11 is like, there was a period of time in which, like, Muslim Americans are like, we're not engaging with government.

AHMED: We're like, kind of just like trying to like live our lives, like. But there's, just a moment in which I think people realize that like their civil rights mattered. Their civil rights in relationship to other communities mattered.

AHMED: Like, one of the stats that I always bring up is that in the last 20 years, Muslim Americans have gone from, like, about 25 to 29%, like ,being for gay marriage. Meaning like very low numbers to being a simple majority.

AHMED: And that's, I think because not only has obviously conversation around, you know, queerness changed in America in many ways, and people are more supportive. But I think it also speaks to the idea that our community learned that, like, our civil rights struggle is tied up with other communities.

AHMED: And like, we started building these connections to like, you know, within our own community, there's obviously like a lot of black Muslims. So there was a, like a lot of connection between like what was happening to American Muslims, and what has happened to black people during their entire time in the United States.

AHMED: Um, so I, I think it's very possible that American Muslims could like, forget all - all of this. And would be happy to, and I think that's a mistake.

AHMED: In periods of like, let's say like better times, I've - I've had arguments with my own, even Pakistani American, uh, family members, like we can basically be full Americans. This is like a very easy, like American racial paradigm that like, oh, like we, like the country sees everyone equally.

But I think it - it - when those moments happen, like right now for Asian-Americans and, you know, election of Donald Trump and so many other moments for American Muslims, like. AHMED: We can't let those be moments in which we feel bad about only what's happening to our community and not connect to other communities.

AHMED: I don't think that sort of feeling - that you are kind of describing of like, you know, what do I do? It's like, I don't think there is anything to do. You can't really control hate in that way. You know what I mean? It's not our responsibility, like, but there is ways in which we can make our communities stronger.

AHMED: And that has always been why I actually even like do this work is because I made that realization. That like it was important to work on ourselves and work on building our communities. 

CATHY: So wait, Ahmed. You're saying we don't have to wear flags and try harder to be more American like Andrew Yang does?  (laughs)  

PAOLA: We don't have to to wear red, white, and blue ?  (laughs)

CATHY: So basically, um, in case you don't know what we're talking about, there was an op-ed by Andrew Yang where he said, Asian-Americans right now need to show our Americanness more than we ever have before. And really wear the red, white and blue and so forth.

AHMED: And it was so funny 'cause that's what exactly what, like, what he's saying is what my mom said to me and I - a lot of love to my mom. She was a Muslim American activist and Asian-American activist in many ways. She was like a big believer in like, we just have to show them that we're good. Um, and then they'll change their mind.

AHMED: And I don't think that the last 20 years prove that at all. Like I think if anything like more exposure to Muslim Americans caused even more violence against our community as opposed to less.

AHMED: So it's like racism is not like a ignorance. It's a hatred. And you - you know, I think the government has a lot of work to like the platform and, and, and work on, you know, getting these elements. Stop allowing them to like, basically fester and unlike a lot of white communities.

PAOLA: Yeah.

CATHY: What do you think, Paola? Where do we go from here?

PAOLA: Well, I mean, I completely agree with Ahmed. I feel like, I feel like what's happening right now has been a wake up call for a lot of Asian-Americans who may not have felt ever affected by things like race and racism before.

CATHY: Yeah, I think so, too.

PAOLA: But I think we should be mindful that, yeah, just because it's happening to your community right now, it doesn't mean this is the only thing we focus on. We have to help each other.

PAOLA: I mean, one of the things that stuck with me, I spoke with Christine Araquel. She's a co owner of a restaurant here called The Park's Finest. It's like a Filipino barbecue spot in Echo Park. Really popular. She owns it with her husband, Johneric Concordia. And right when the closures of restaurants started happening, they pivoted their business to start feeding frontliners.

PAOLA: They started pivoting to feed frontliners and  healthcare workers. And they told me that one reason they were able to do that was they got community funding and support, as well as, like, angel sponsors. And I asked, like when you say community, like who's your community?

PAOLA: And they were like, honestly, like so many different communities, Asian, brown, black, whatever, in Los Angeles and especially the Japanese American community.

PAOLA: Because if you're familiar with Los Angele, and actually the Asian American community here. A lot of our community events take place in little Tokyo and in the Japanese American kind of neighborhood. They've created space for our Asian communities to come together. And Christine was like, yeah, it's because you know, they know what it's like to feel like, you know, persecuted and discriminated against.

PAOLA: They have a long history of that here. You know what happened to them in World War II, being incarcerated  in concentration camps. And since then, the community here has really tried to build a space for themselves, but also to welcome other communities because they know, like, that's what we need to do.

PAOLA: Like we have to kind of stick up for each other and create space for each other and support where we can.

AHMED: Yeah. Just, just to be clear, like I think for me, the  government, like, has a big responsibility and culpability for the - for the rise of hate crimes, but I don't, like,

PAOLA: Yeah.

AHMED: rely on them in any way for community building space. It's just like the violence has been left to be unchecked in many ways.

PAOLA: I have also tweeted about this, god, I need to get off Twitter. I think Asian-American, or Asian America, sometimes is a difficult idea for some people.

PAOLA: Honestly, like - I, like, I don't know if my parents consider themselves Asian-American. Do you know what I mean? Like, they're not, you know, they're much older. They're immigrants. They think about things differently than I do.

PAOLA: But, I think I've definitely been thinking about this recently. I think one thing that honestly, unfortunately, unites Asian Americans is the fact that we all have been, you know, otherwise seen as perpetual foreigners, experienced the racism in different ways.

PAOLA: Um. You know that and rice are what we have in common, I guess.

 (laughs)

PAOLA: But, um, but you know what I'm saying? Like, but I also feel like we all have different shades of those experiences. I think it's like, the reason Asian-America exists is because all these groups came together and was like, okay, we will have a greater impact if we actually do work together.

PAOLA: Yeah. Does that make sense? I thought of rice. I got hungry. I haven't eaten.

AHMED: Same. Paula, I'm glad you brought up like the idea of Asian-America is difficult for a lot of people. Because for my - for myself also, like, thinking about it, I'm glad we had this conversation cause I'm thinking about actually all the ways in which I've heard,like, anti East Asian sentiment in my South Asian community.

AHMED: And I was thinking about why like Asian-American is so challenging for me. And I think it's because when I tried to go into those spaces, I often experienced like anti South Asian, anti Muslim, honestly, very ignorant comments at times.

AHMED: Even with like some, like, very good friends of mine who wouldn't check themselves. Like, I think many of - in my community probably do have anti East Asian bias. Um, just like, you know, after 9/11 or whatever, like I'm sure a lot of East Asian Americans had things - not so great things to say about Muslims.

AHMED: So I think we're all like cooped up together. We're all talking to each other. We have to like check our - not just elders, obviously - like, our own generation for their biases as well, because they can leak out when, like, such a - such a challenging time. I would like to be more comfortable being a part of the, like, Asian-American conversation, but frankly I'm often not included.

AHMED: But like it is important to think about the ways in which we can like check the biases in our community and build bonds. And it's like a good time to do so. And I'm really glad you guys convened this as a result.

CATHY: Thanks so much for joining. You know, I - I'm really hopeful that we are seeing, um, a lot of community efforts and a lot of unity amongst all kinds of groups.

CATHY: And, you know, I, I just hope that, yeah, this is a transformational period in which we do look at the good, bad, and the ugly.

JAMES: Something that I really hope for moving forward is just listening better. If we have our health and we are at home and we can jump on Zoom, we can listen and then eventually come back together.

JAMES: I just hope there's a lot more space for that kind of showing up. Like every Friday, right in my own building, I knew only one of my neighbors and then some folks moved out, some folks moved in, didn't know anybody. And I took a look at this mailing list, this Google group we were using to stay in touch and realize that there are — literally nobody on there lives here anymore.

JAMES: And so once we went on locked down, my roommate and I just reached out and started a new email group. And we're checking in every week now. And you know, I've learned that we have a first responder who's now working 12 hour shifts at a hospital. We have therapists who are helping people remotely kind of get through all of this, but we also have people who have pretty scary health conditions.

JAMES: And something that's helped me is just knowing that and just being able to check in with them. And I hope that's the kind of energy, you know, we can carry on. Not let that go, right? It would be a big waste if we did not learn how to just be better.  (laughs) As we - as we come out of this, it's going to be a long haul.

CATHY: Yeah.

AHMED: I have a question for everybody. You don't have to answer this, but I have, like, a question that I want to know, which is that, is anyone cooking any like really great, like, family recipes during this time in quarantine? (laughs) I wonder what everyone's eating?

PAOLA: Honestly, I made some spam with white rice and fried eggs and that was, like, perfect.

PAOLA: That was, um, that was awesome. Yeah. I - I'm just trying to use what I have, you know what I mean? And I'm so glad we have spam. Honestly, I don't feel bad about it.

CATHY: Mhm. Um, I made just a really simple chicken and vegetable stir fry with some black bean sauce. I usually get caught up in something more complicated, so it's just kinda nice to go back to like, just to really like slap dash stir fry as a routine.

JAMES: I love Pinto beans, like being from LA, the LA area. Just making tortillas and eating them with Pinto beans. To me, that's just like, that's home. And it's a process too, you know? So it kind of keeps you staying that way.

AHMED: I'm working on, I'm cooking for like two - my uncle and my dad, so I'm almost exclusively cooking South Asian food cause I know they'll like it. And we're just like eating lentils every day, which can be kind of boring I think. But it's kind of fun in the same sense.

AHMED: And then I do like occasionally try to spice it up by like making like pakoras and like, there's this dish called "curry," which is like a yogurt yellow yogurt soup with pakoras in it.

AHMED: Like, I'll just make huge batches of it. It's been a fun time for cooking for me, honestly.

CATHY: Oh my god. That's awesome. I wish I had more mouths to feed.

AHMED: I mean, just speaking for all the immigrant aunties out there, it's a blessing and a curse. It makes you feel really happy, but it's very stressful,

CATHY: okay.

AHMED: I've come to realize. (laughs)

PAOLA: Cathy, are you, I mean, you are very much a cook at home, right? You're a proponent of cooking at home, so is this experience like, this is just like normal life for you?

CATHY: This is normal life.  (laughs))

PAOLA:  Oh wow. You haven't had to adjust? That's amazing.

CATHY: Not really. I haven't eaten out since, I don't know when, the beginning of March I guess. So, I mean I miss it now cause it's like you want what you can't have.

JAMES: You know, we're recording this on a Friday, and my roommate and I have agreed that for the foreseeable future, every Friday we order a large pepperoni pizza.

CATHY: Yeah, I can support that.

JAMES: And I can walk over, you know, three blocks and pick it up in person. And they got all the dudes there with masks making the pizzas. And you know, New York is bad right now, but it's also the home of New York pizza. So thank god.

CATHY: Gods. Well, whoever you want to thank. Thank you.

JAMES: Yeah, you can swap in — yeah, we haven't developed the ritual - the religious ritual around the pizza yet. I'm sure that will come in like week seven, when we're, we have the incantations and everything, but... yeah.

AHMED: Never done that before.

CATHY: Love it. Well, I might have to join that. Thank you so much again for taking this time and just so everyone's aware, where can we follow everybody?

PAOLA: I am at Paola Mardo, that's P-A-O-L-A-M-A-R-D-O on Twitter and Instagram. And if you want to follow Long Distance, it's at Long Distance Radio on Instagram. And obviously Long Distance anywhere you listen to podcasts.

AHMED: I'm @radbrowndads on Twitter and Instagram and See Something Say Something is doing a miniseries with Brick Radio called M Train. Uh, we're talking a little bit about corona recently as it's changed our production plans. You can find a see something say something on your podcast feeds.

JAMES: Uh, my particular way of coping with cabin fever is I rewrote Star Wars episode nine, and it's in 21 tweets. So if you want to see that, or if you definitely want to avoid it and never go to this handle, I'm @actualjamesboo.

CATHY: Okay! Thank you so much for continuing the conversations on your respective podcasts. We'll be tuning into those. I hope everyone stays well, stays healthy, and checks in on your neighbors and your families and - and so forth.

CATHY: So thanks again for taking this time to talk with us on Self Evident.

AHMED: Thanks for having us.

PAOLA: Thanks for having us.

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CATHY: This episode was produced by Julia Shu and mixed by Timothy Lou Lee. Don't forget to check out the show notes for links to everything that Paola, Ahmed, James and I mentioned during our conversation.

CATHY: And going back to that question about what we can do right now, we've been searching for every anti-racism resource we can find and sharing them through our newsletter.

CATHY: You can sign up for that at selfevidentshow.com. If you have any feedback on this episode, good, bad, whatever, please email your thoughts to community@selfevidentshow.com.

CATHY: Self Evident is a Studiotobe Production. I'm Cathy Erway. Let's talk soon. Until then, please take care of each other.

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