Episode 024: Only Fans

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Transcript

Pre-Roll: Listener Drive Promo and Content Warning

JAMES VO: Hi! This is James, the showrunner here at Self Evident.

JAMES VO: Before we start the show, I just wanted to remind you that we are running our annual listener drive — and right now, thanks to one of our incredibly generous listeners, every time you make a tax-deductible donation, that donation will be doubled, dollar for dollar.

JAMES VO: We also have some really fun gifts for everyone who makes a donation.

JAMES VO: So if you haven’t pitched in yet, please, press pause and go to selfevidentshow.com/supporters. It takes just a few minutes and makes all the difference in the world.

JAMES VO: Also — one of the conversations we’re bringing you today is a pretty explicit discussion about adult entertainment, including jokes about sex and swearing.

JAMES VO: It’s also a lot of fun. But if that's not something you want to hear right now, you should pause at around fourteen minutes... then fast forward to around thirty-one minutes to finish the episode.

JAMES VO: Thanks for listening.

Cold Open

Daphne Chen: So... I was just hanging out with my partner and a friend of ours, and they were kind of having a jam session. So just like playing songs on their guitars and like piano and whatever, in our living room.

CATHY VO: That's Daphne Chen. She's an audio producer, one of our listeners — and like me, she's Taiwanese American.

DC: And they were kind of like, oh, like what songs should we play next?

DC: And I was like, play “Say Your Name” by Destiny's Child . Cause that's, like, a great song, always. And so they were listening to it just to, like, refresh themselves. Then it started playing the next song on that album.

DC: And I just kind of froze immediately because I totally recognized the beginning notes of that song, but it was not a version that I ever heard before.

MUSIC: The opening notes to “Brown Eyes” by Destiny's Child

Cathy: That's one of my favorite early Destiny's Child Songs!

DC: Oh, my gosh —

Cathy: “Brown eyes” !

DC: If we were —

Cathy: (sings the line) ”Remember the first day "...

MUSIC: The opening lines to “Brown Eyes” (“Remember the first day..”)

DC: If we were friends, you could have saved me so much trauma… (laughs)

Cathy: (Laughs)

DC: Because this is the exact reason I wrote in!

MUSIC: A laid back synth-y pop tune begins

CATHY VO: So if you didn't recognize it — that song, "Brown Eyes," is by the one and only American R&B group, Destiny's Child.

CATHY VO: And Daphne was shocked when the song came on, because she grew up listening to a cover version of "Brown Eyes"...

CATHY VO: ...by a Taiwanese pop group called S.H.E.

DC: I just completely froze.

Cathy: (Laughs)

DC: I was, I, like, panicked. I was like, “What is this?! Stop, this immediately — like, w-w-what's happening?!”

DC: And just like… sat there listening to it and realized... (laughs) it’s the exact same.

Cathy: Was everyone like, "What's the Matter"?

DC: Yeah, they're both, like, looking at me like, "Are you okay??"

DC: And I was like, trying to explain that —

Cathy: You were not OK.

DC: “S.H.E.! There's this song.”

DC: And they're like, "What are you talking about? Like, this is not making any sense."

DC: Yeah, I just, I had no idea that it was a cover, and I was like...

MUSIC: A laid back synth-y pop tune ends

DC: “You do not understand, like, this is a song that I listened to falling asleep, like… it’s in Chinese, I don't know why this version, it's in English…”

MUSIC: “Not Yet Lovers” by S.H.E. begins, with first verse of lyrics sung in Mandarin to the tune of “Brown Eyes,” then the music fades out under Daphne’s voice

DC: I don't know why Beyonce's singing it, like... doesn't make sense.

DC: It was like a glitch in the matrix for me where I was just, like, "Should I be seeing this? Like, what does this mean?"

DC: And yeah, so then basically I just tapped out of whatever they were doing for the rest of the night, and just got to Googling, and just like going down this huge rabbit hole of like...

DC: "What's real? What's not? Which are cover songs, which are originals?"

CATHY: OK, so this is “Always on my mind,” by S.H.E…

MUSIC: “Always On My Mind” by S.H.E. plays

CATHY: ...and this is “Read my Mind,” the original, by Sweetbox...

MUSIC: “Always On My Mind” cuts seamlessly into “Read My Mind” by Sweetbox without missing a beat

CATHY: Now here’s “Watch Me Shine” by S.H.E…

MUSIC: “Watch Me Shine” by S.H.E. plays, quickly cutting seamlessly into “Watch Me Shine” by Joanna Pacitti without missing a beat

CATHY: ...and this is Watch Me Shine, the original, by Joanna Pacitti.

CATHY: And here they are together.

MUSIC: The two tracks are overlapped directly to show that the two are, beat for beat, pitch for pitch, based on the same musical composition, then they end simultaneously

DC: It's kind of funny. (laughs)

DC: And it does kind of feel like it just sums up my experience in some ways of what I've felt as being Asian American or being Taiwanese... 

DC: …like it is this push and pull between, like, what you know, and what you don't know, and, like, also what you connect with and what you can't...

Cathy: Yeah, and the songs really sound so similar!

DC: Have you heard S.H.E. before? Like, were you familiar with this band?

Cathy: No! I was, I'd never really heard of it.

DC: Gotcha, gotcha.

Cathy: Maybe like sort of in the periphery of, of my consciousness when I was in Taiwan for a little while, but yeah, no.

DC: Oh my God. It's like, you're kind of like the mirror of me, then. I feel like your experience with this song is probably exactly what I felt, like, a few years ago... (laughs) when my bubble burst!

THEME MUSIC begins

Open

CATHY VO: This is Self Evident, where we tell Asian America's stories to go beyond being seen.

CATHY VO: I'm your host, Cathy Erway.

CATHY VO: Today we're sharing three conversations about the need to see someone, to hear someone, even to idolize someone who resembles you.

CATHY VO: And show some of the limitations of what pop culture can do to meet that need.

CATHY VO: We'll hear what it's like to meet one of your idols and talk about real life...

Cody Silver: You should see my notes app on my phone. I'm just laying in bed till three in the morning, coming up with stupid things to caption my posts with.

Alex: What are some of the best captions?

Cody: May I pull up my app?

Alex: Please do, please do.

CATHY VO: ...and explore how it feels to see the more complicated truth behind the movies you grew up believing you had to hold onto, no matter what...

Yashica Dutt: Bollywood is a very clever way to impart or disseminate a certain kind of sensibility: rich, upper caste diaspora... thin for women, light-skinned, following a certain Hindu tradition…

Yashica Dutt: ...which is now an export all over the world.

CATHY VO: But now, back to Daphne Chen.

THEME MUSIC ends

Segment 1: Daphne Chen, S.H.E. and Destiny’s Child Fan

CATHY VO: A while back, Daphne reached out to us with this story, about the moment she realized that all of her favorite, supposedly very Taiwanese and Chinese-language songs by S.H.E., were actually just covers of American songs.

CATHY VO: When I called her, we started digging into why she had so many feelings wrapped up in this music, and in the idea of S.H.E. in the first place.

CATHY VO: Daphne told me about growing up in Hudson — a mostly white Ohio suburb, where her grandparents and her parents settled when they immigrated to the U.S.

DC: A lot of people, you know, just assume I'm from California. It's like that old cliche.

DC: But no, we ended up in Ohio.

DC: So I guess growing up, it was like, that classic sort of second generation immigrant struggle of like, “What does my culture mean to me? What's my race mean?”

DC: At the same time that, like, everyone around me was seeing my race very clearly.

DC: To them, it was a really important aspect of myself.

DC: And to me, I hadn't really figured out yet.

DC: One of my aunts would visit every few years and when I was pretty young — I can't remember young. It was probably middle school or maybe elementary school. She brought over this CD collection — what do — (laughs), I don't even know what to call them anymore, it's so weird… It’s like a, a case of CDs.

Cathy: A box set? (laughs)

DC: It was a box set! Yes! Thank you! Thank you! Oh my God… (laughs)

DC: Yeah. She brought this box set of this band. That was just kind of like taking off in Taiwan at the time. And it was called S.H.E.

DC: And I just became obsessed with this album, and like me and my sister and my mom would just like, play it on repeat.

DC: I listened to it before bed, like, every night, I just... like, latched onto these songs, essentially.

DC: And I think —

Cathy: Wow.

DC: Yeah!

Cathy: That’s major devotion, like, bedtime lullaby… (laughs)

DC: Yeah. I had, like, the CD player, big Walkman type thing, that I would just (laughs) play.

Cathy: Tucked under the sheets...

DC: Exactly.

DC: I think for me, like, I felt very much like, "I love this album so much." Like, "This is proof that I am Taiwanese." In this weird, you know, kid logic of like...

DC: I couldn't speak Mandarin, I could not really speak Taiwanese. I can't read or write, like, I'm surrounded by people that don't really look like me. I don't know anything about the culture. Like, I don't know, you know, who the hottest artists are, who the hottest, like actors are, whatever.

DC: But then this album came and I was like, "Oh well, if I like this, like this must be proof of something in me."

DC: Which is probably why I freaked out so much, a few years ago, when I just, like, happened to hear the Destiny's Child original.

Cathy: Wowwww.

DC: All these years when I was thinking of myself as Asian American, like, and this was my proof, it's like, if this isn't actually proof, then, then what does that mean?

Cathy: Hmmm.

DC: Which is not the way that culture works or identity works, you know, but (laughs) I guess in my mindset, where, where I kind of internalized that idea... that's where I ended up that fateful night.

DC: Did you have, like, any experiences with bands or music or other things, know, that…

Cathy: Yeah...

Cathy: I mean, I feel like my experience is a little different, but I also had like this band that I really just latched on to...

Cathy: When I was about 13, 14... it was like the summer before I was a freshman in high school.

Cathy: So there's a CD lying around and it was by a band called Cibo Matto. The album was called "Viva La Woman!" .

Cathy: It’s an Italian name, but it's this duo of these two Japanese women who were in New York City and like making these funky groovy beats and sort of like, you just have to hear it.

DC: I would! I would love to hear it.

MUSIC: Chorus to "Know Your Chicken" by Cibo Matto plays

DC: Ah, oh my God, this is amazing.

Cathy: Isn't it amazing? Okay.

Cathy: This is your first time hearing Cibo Matto?

DC: Yes, it is my first time.

Cathy: And then the other songs they're like screaming, like, a little bit and other songs are like super chill...

Cathy: It was idiosyncratic, it was very special. Even, you know, in the world of, like, avant garde music for the time, it was like really out there.

Cathy: And I just, I just fell in love — and also all the songs are, like, about food.

Cathy: Like, that one is called "Know Your Chicken."

DC: Yeah.

Cathy: There's a song about beef jerky . 

Cathy: There's like a song about white pepper ice cream one that I really liked.

Cathy: So everything about this band just, like, really spoke to me cause like around this age I was, like, starting to realize that I was not like your typical sort of goodie two-shoe, like, straight-laced, straight-As-getting Asian-American kid, which my parents would have liked. They didn't get that.

Cathy: And I was instead like smoking weed and, like, I don't know, just, like, piercing my nose and stuff like that.

Cathy: And, and I just, I had never seen anything that involved Asian Americans in this context which I thought was, like, super subversive and I thought that was just so cool.

DC: Breaking of the box kind of thing?

Cathy: Yeah! Yeah...

Cathy: I mean, like all the role models that I could see in pop culture were like folks like Michelle Kwan or something like that, and just, like, really kind of like, I don't know, perfect or something? (laughs)

DC: Yeah. No, no, I feel that.

Cathy: And...

DC: Does it take you back listening to it now? Of like the headspace of...

Cathy: Oh my God. Yeah.

Cathy: Someone once told me that like the music that you become really attached to at this age, like your early adolescence, like, has this, like, outsize effect on you and then like, it always stays with you in a really lasting way, and I definitely feel that it's the case for this,

DC: No, totally. I feel like that rings true for me as well.

Cathy: Right? Exactly.

DC: Yeah, totally.

Cathy: Who knows what it might have been like if I had found S.H.E., or I don't know, something...

DC: Right...

Cathy: ...else? Totally.

Cathy: I have to say, I feel like it really connected me as like, it made me feel that sort of Asian American-ness in me.  like I knew that I was drawn to them on a really primal level because they were Asian.

Cathy: It was just, like, Asian Americans can break rules and, like, swear and, like, yell about food and, and that's, that's — like, I had never like, kind of seen an example of that.

DC: Definitely. I think like when you were talking about, "If I had known S.H.E. or heard of that" — like, every little thing that was Taiwanese, you kinda had to like latch onto it, and, like, prove you are or prove you aren't in relationship to the stereotype of what people expect from you because you are Asian American.

DC: At least for me with this band in particular, like, it's still goes back to the feeling like you need these outward signs of proof.

DC: In watching the DVDs of S.H.E., in watching, you know, people in Taiwan just being themselves...

DC: They weren't worried about, you know, being a good Asian, being a bad Asian, proving they were Asian or not. They were also just, you know, being people. And I feel like maybe there is something in that freedom too, that was like, to young me, very appealing.

Segment 2: Cody Seiya

MUSIC: A midtempo, Afrobeat-influenced, slightly lounge-y funk tune begins

CATHY VO: I loved hearing this story and digging up these unexpected musical teen idols.

CATHY VO: For Daphne, the fact that S.H.E. wasn't part of American media but was playing American songs... that let us focus more on where this need to hear an Asian voice, period, comes from. And how it became so specific and so personal for both of us.

CATHY VO: I also got some of that same feeling when I was chatting with our intern, Alex Chun. And so I'm gonna pass the mic over to him now — hi, Alex!

ALEX VO: Hey Cathy!

CATHY VO: So you actually recently met one of your idols, is that right?

ALEX VO: Yeah! So last spring, I spent a lot of time thinking about how stereotypes have really big impacts on what queer Asian men experience — specifically in their sex lives.

CATHY VO: Huh. So naturally, as you do during your second year at college, locked away during a pandemic...

ALEX VO: Haha, right? So... I ended up researching gay porn.

CATHY VO: Ok.

ALEX VO: And here's the thing. I know queer folks are more visible in media today, maybe more than ever? But the thing that really influenced my self image in a deep way, and I'm sure still affects young people today, is pornography.

CATHY VO: OK. And I'm sure for a someone who's maybe just realizing that they're queer... what kind of porn stars they see, just on their phones, in the privacy of their own bedroom, could have a much bigger effect than, say, whether Marvel has another Asian superhero, right?

ALEX VO: Absolutely. And, well... I don't watch a ton of straight porn, but I'm sure you know how unrealistic it can be.

ALEX VO: That's why I was really excited to chat with Cody Seiya. He's a queer Asian American OnlyFans creator in his late 20s .

CATHY VO: And for those who don't know, OnlyFans is a website where creators can upload videos and photos and messages to their own private audience of subscribers.

ALEX VO: Yup! And OnlyFans content is usually pretty sexual .

ALEX VO: So I was curious about Cody's experiences just across the board.

ALEX VO: Like, porn, dating, life, love... but I specifically wanted to know how he experienced what feels like a pattern of queer Asian men being expected to bottom during sex.

ALEX VO: ‘Cause I noticed that he would release a video, where he was topping, and sometimes he’d get negative, even racist comments, from random people online.

CATHY VO: OK, sorry to interrupt, but can you explain what “topping” or “bottoming” means? In case folks don’t know?

ALEX VO: So in this particular conversation, we used the terms "bottoming" and "topping" to talk about two queer men having sex. A bottom is usually the partner who is penetrated, and the top is usually the one who penetrates .

CATHY VO: Oh.

ALEX VO: And then some people identify as "vers."

ALEX VO: Short for "versatile," meaning that they're happy to do either .

ALEX VO: But as helpful and simple as these labels may appear to be... I think sex and intimacy, especially for queer folks, is really defined by the people who are creating that intimacy.

ALEX VO: And where we learn how to do that.

ALEX VO: So when I called Cody, we started there. With the first time he saw porn.

MUSIC: Lounge-y funk tune ends

Cody Seiya: I was seven. And I was just bored, and my family was not home and the computer was open, and I looked up "The A-Teens naked."

Cody Seiya: Why? I don't know.

Alex: The A-Teens?

CS: They were this, like, pop group from the late nineties .

Alex: Sure.

CS: Anyways, it was just a barrage of boobs and butts… (laughs) on the computer and no A-Teens, so I was disappointed.

Alex: I'm curious, how was your day to day life different after finding porn?

CS: Yeah, it became almost habitual where like every night I'd be like, okay, I'm going to watch an episode of Death Note or whatever.

CS: And I'm like, "okay, time for sleep. I need to beat my meat."

Alex: (Laughs)

CS: (Laughs) And so I would just like, I would start off looking at straight porn too. And I would find myself focusing more on the guys.

CS: And then if I felt really daring, I would look at  man on man porn. And I'd be like, "Oh, that was weird. But it doesn't mean anything. ha ha!"

Alex: So what happened next?

CS: Well, from there, my parents took the computer out of the living room.

Alex: Did they take the computer because they knew you were looking at porn?

CS: Oh. For sure. They were like, “Um, what did we raise?” Anyways...

Alex: (Laughs) How did they find out? And did they ever talk to you about that?

CS: They didn't. But sometimes you just know, and I have a feeling like…

CS: This was before I was even aware that you could look up search history, but oh, it was there.

CS: And it wasn't until high school that I was able to get my own laptop for school.

CS: And from there I just started looking up anything and everything I could consume.

Alex: Did you see, like, any Asian men in porn at the time? Or specifically queer Asian men?

CS: Nope! That was the big thing. It was only these, like, corn-bred white boys with, like, the deepest blue eyes and the blondest of hair and... nary an Asian man in sight, or a person of color, really.

Alex: I, I definitely relate to your story. Like... I have always felt very comfortable with myself and my identity, but I always, like, haven't felt super comfortable in my hometown, more so just because of other people, right?

Alex: And... porn for me was really interesting because... similar to you, I think, like, it was the first way that I was really able to see two gay men, like interact. In, in a way that like I understood to be intimate at the time, and so...

Alex: That was really formative because.... it basically allowed me to like, imagine a future for myself — but because I also never saw any gay Asian men, I had such a difficult time imagining myself, like, as a gay Asian adult, if that makes sense. Like, I, I almost always pictured myself like as a gay white man or just like, as a grown Korean straight man...

Alex: I'm wondering if you had a similar experience to this.

CS: Yeah, actually. And, like, the very few times that I would stumble upon Asian men in porn, it would be very niche and extremely exoticized, like, "Asian bottom gets cream pied by big black cock!"

CS: Or whatever, and it's like, "Oh! My God. Okay, cool.”

CS: So we're just reduced to these objects of sexual desire as opposed to being people that are capable or deserving of intimacy and love —

Alex: Was it important to find a relatable sex symbol at the time?

CS: At the time, no, but looking back, I'm realizing how important it would have been if I did find someone like that, because it truly affected my confidence for so long.

CS: And I would also act in bad faith, too, whenever I would go out and just be like, "Oh, he's racist. That's why he's not into me."

CS: As opposed to being like, oh, maybe he's not into you because you look grouchy, and your brow is furrowed because you automatically assume this guy is racist.

Alex: I, I definitely relate to that.

Alex: I just found this world, right? That I didn't know existed and felt very illicit and secretive and very exciting.

Alex: But I… like, when I first began dating or interacting with other people, predominantly white men in my hometown — I grew up, like, in a suburb in the Midwest — it did not take long for me to realize that many people, specifically non-Asian people, like, expected me to bottom, or like...

Alex: I would get messages on like Tinder, Grindr from like usually older white guys, and they would make a comment about my race or like what they wanted to like… (laughs)

CS: Yeah, I mean, like rice queens?

Alex: ...DO to me. No, yes! Exactly. Exactly. And I mean, I say that it was an expectation that other people had put on me, but I think I also put it on myself to an extent in terms of, like, when I was dating some of my first few boyfriends who were white, I often wondered, like, if I was compromising a part of myself for them...

Alex: ...or, I don't know, or —

CS: It's like this weird, like paradoxical, you find this like paradoxical power in oppression almost?

Alex: Yeah.

CS: And for the longest time too, I would just play into these desires and stereotypes that these men would place on me...

CS: And I guess I would just be very excited because they were giving me any sort of attention, because I just had such low self worth, and I didn't see myself as being, you know, this, like, paragon of sexual desire, especially being an Asian man.

CS: You know, you feel like you hold the power, but at the same time you're playing into these roles of submission...

CS: Where I would just automatically assume bottom position. Like, “All right!”

Alex: Do you think you would have had a different mentality or different expectations in those early dating experiences, if you had seen different kinds of Asian men in porn?

CS: I think so. I would have been able to be more confident in myself — or it also would have set an example for other people that aren't Asian and being like, “Oh yeah, like, Asian guys? They're viable sex partners, let me tell ya! You see that so-and-so? He's so hot." Like...

CS: It would have helped the cause a lot.

CS: It also turned me off to other Asians because I'm — it's like...

CS: "I'm a bottom because everyone assumes that I'm a bottom." And then also, oh, "I'm not really into other Asians because other Asians are only bottoms."

Alex: Mmm.

CS: So it's this never ending cycle.

Alex: When you've topped in the past, some fans have responded negatively and have expressed like criticism or just the expectation that they want you to bottom.  Because you're Asian.

CS: Yeah. Whenever I post a clip of me topping or saying like, “Oh! You know, started from the bottom, now we vers.”

Alex: (Laughs)

CS: I get responses like, "What are you doing on top?"

CS: Or "Asian guys are usually the bottom, like, what are you doing?"

CS: Or just like, "Okay, Mary, you get back on bottom."

CS: Things like that...

Alex: Oh my gosh.

CS: It's funny, even in 2020 people are out here, you know, just being racist in front of God and everybody, I guess, and just assuming, like, we are all submissive, and... it's very tiring.

Alex: I'm so sorry, Cody. I'm still not over "Started from the bottom, now we vers." (laughs)

CS: Yeah!

Alex: When did you come up with that?

CS: You should see my notes app on my phone. I'm just laying in bed till three in the morning, coming up with stupid things to caption my posts with.

Alex: What are some of the best captions?

CS: May I pull up my app?

Alex: Please do, please do.

CS: Yeah. Here's a fun note:

CS: “Butt plug phone pop socket.”

Alex: (Laughs)

CS: “Oh, just left the dentist office and I'm realizing I need more fingers in my mouth."

Alex: (Laughs)

CS: Why did I... "He sounded like a mogwai when he sucked my dick."

Alex: (Laughs)

CS: Oh my God, here's a gold one: "Anyone else hating the ass of bread? Yeah, me too. That's why I eat... man ass?!"

Alex: (Laughs)

CS: These are just notes of a mad man, I guess.

Alex: That’s awesome. Like...

Alex: ...I am a person who will randomly have like existential crises at like 3:00 AM in my notes app is suddenly my best friend. And then like, I will reread my thought dump in the morning and I was like, "Oh my gosh, I was really going through it."

CS: Yeah.

Alex: So we've talked so much about how it's important to like see Asian men topping in porn and, like, how it's been formative in a way — seeing it or not seeing it as well.

Alex: I feel it raises some questions about why we feel topping is something to even value.

Alex: Like, as men, or like as a masculine performance. Does that kind of binary feel limiting at times, even if it's liberating?

CS: Yeah, in a way, because it just kind of furthers the heteronormative standard, I guess?

CS: Where people see like, “Oh, penetration, like the phallic, it's so masculine.” and like, "Oh yeah. If you're being dominant and you have to be masculine"...

CS: Conversely, too, I've found power in, like, being a power bottom, and it's like, "Oh, I'm going to fuck you... but with my butt."

CS: Does that make sense? Where it's, like, I'm taking control, you're sitting back. Like, I don't care if you think that you're, like, the dom masculine top, because your penis is inside me.

Alex: Oh, absolutely.

CS: "I have the power right now. I could snap that thing off.”

Alex: (Laughs)

CS: But I won't! (laughs)

Alex: So when did the mental shift happen for you, when you begin to consider that rather than a viewer, you could be a performer as well?

CS: Well. I just graduated from college a year ago . And the world was basically ending, like we were in the middle of this pierogi, and I wasn't sure what to do. 

CS: And I had friends for the longest time be like, "Oh! You should do porn, you should do OnlyFans. What are you waiting for? You're so cute, you're already filming yourself having sex with people..."

CS: Like, I would record it as like my greatest hits album in my phone... uh... for my spank bank.

Alex: (Laughs)

CS: (Laughs)

CS: And, um, it hit a point where it's like, "You know what? I should just capitalize on this."

CS: And I will say that I recognize that I do have some privilege and that I'm like, I'm half white .

CS: So I look foreign enough to them to be like, "oh yeah, he's an Asian guy, but he's got a little white in him… little familiar..."

CS: Whereas, like, you know, some of the other performers are like fully Asian or very Asian presenting, and they aren't receiving as many followers or subscribers or getting the praise that they rightfully deserve, truly.

Alex: Right.

Alex: I think a defining aspect about OnlyFans is that, like, the fans are both the viewer and the director in a way.

CS: That is so true, bestie.

Alex: (Laughs)

CS: Now that I think about that, I'm like, "yeah, you're so right."

CS: Folks will send suggestions or send comments, be like, "I'd like to see more Asian performers on your page."

CS: People will be like, "Oh my God, this is so empowering. Thank you so much for what you're doing."

CS: Even on dating apps, like Grindr, Scruff, I'll get strangers, just messaging me like, "Oh my God, you’re Cody Seiya! I love your work. You're so cute. And thank you so much for what you're doing for the Asian community."

CS: And I've received messages too... there's a pretty lengthy one, but I'll give you the, the SparkNotes version.

Alex: Please do.

CS: Where this guy, who is also a fellow queer Asian man, was telling me how he wasn't really out, and watching my videos and my content helped him come to terms with his sexuality and be comfortable coming out to his friends, and realizing that he too has every right to be just as confident and feel just as sexy. With who he is.

Alex: I think you touched on something very interesting... I think that sometimes marginalized people, people who are marginalized in any way, kind of have a pressure to like, find, resistance.

Alex: And, and, and of course. But I think that there is resistance interest existence, and like kind of what you were saying, and just, like, just being you and having sex and just being different and like reveling in that, like, is an act of resistance for what people expect out of you.

CS: Yeah.

CS: There are some guys that they do like the most ridiculous stunts for their pages.

CS: Like, "Oh, I'm gonna, like, hula hoop. And some blowing me."

CS: Or like weird things like that. Like they're trying the most.

CS: Yeah, and that's something I did think about too, where I'm like, “Oh, what do I do? Like maybe I should do this stunt or like, I should work with so-and-so,” and it's like...

CS: No! Like, just being yourself, you know, is already so exciting for people to see.

CS: And for me, I'm like, I'm just going to have really good sex, and enjoy it.

CS: And show that like Asian men...

MUSIC: A midtempo, comforting hip-hop beat begins

Alex: ...can have good sex and share the pleasures and joys of having sex...

CS: ...and I feel so weird kind of patting myself on the back or complimenting myself, but, you know, there's like this uniqueness to me.

CS: But I will also say there's a uniqueness to everyone else too, like, no one in the world is like you and you should revel in it.

Alex: Have you ever thought about yourself as a young person, having his computer taken away for doing porn searches, and then realized that, like, for many queer Asians right now, they might be looking for you?

CS: Wow! That is a galaxy brain thought that I have not thought about before! Uh, I guess so!

CS: Um, but also if you're under age, do not be looking at my porn, thank you!

CS: But also! If you are, I hope you feel empowered!

(Alex and Cody laugh)

MUSIC: Hip-hop beat ends

Midroll Promo: Viewers Like Us

GRACE LEE VO: "Viewers Like Us" is hardly the first effort to call out public television on its record with people of color.

GRACE LEE VO: In 2007, Latinx viewers organized to protest a Ken Burns documentary.

Male voice: Even when he interviews people of color for his films, he still controls the narrative, then pats himself on the back for including us at all.

GRACE LEE VO: I'm Grace Lee, Host of "Viewers Like Us."

GRACE LEE VO: We're investigating how this kind of pattern keeps happening, even now.

GRACE LEE VO: Join us, wherever you listen to podcasts.

Segment 3: Yashica Dutt and Mitali Desai

CATHY VO: This is Self Evident. I'm Cathy Erway.

CATHY VO: The final conversation we're sharing today was actually hosted by our producer Harsha — hi Harsha!

HARSHA VO: Hi, Cathy!

MUSIC: A funky, Latin- and Afrobeat-influenced tune fades in

CATHY VO: So when we started talking about the underlying need to see yourself in media, naturally one thing that came up was not just Hollywood... but Bollywood.

CATHY VO: Which, if folks are listening and have always thought of Bollywood as, like, Hindi language movies for people in India... well, it’s actually also a major cultural export, from India to the rest of the world.

HARSHA VO: Yeah, so Bollywood has a big long history that most folks in the U.S. don't know much about, and it's also just one of many kinds of film industries that come from India. There are so many more, because India is so diverse...

HARSHA VO: ...but anyway, yeah, it has become this kind of export good. And this conversation about pop culture idols brought up a lifelong experience of mine that I’ve heard other Indian Americans and NRIs talk about.

CATHY VO: NRIs?

HARSHA VO: NRI means "Non Resident Indians." In this conversation I'm about to play, you'll hear us say "NRI" a couple times, and we're actually just referring to Indian people who reside outside of India.

CATHY VO: Ok, got it.

HARSHA VO: So speaking for myself, I loved these movies growing up and felt like it filled this sort of void that White American media left when it came to representation.

HARSHA VO: But it wasn't until recently that I started to reflect on the stories and the experiences Bollywood left out, and think about a bigger question for me, which is: Who is Bollywood actually for?

HARSHA VO: And the answer to that has changed over the years, and you can see this in the stories and perspectives that the Bollywood film industry portrays from decade to decade.

MUSIC: Funky beat fades out under Harsha

HARSHA VO: But the 1990s were most formative for me, because that’s when young Harsha was coming of age… (laughs)

CATHY VO: Okay, for sure, yup.

HARSHA VO: This giant, like, blockbuster of blockbusters came out, called Dilwale Dulhania Le Jayenge — or DDLJ, for short.

MUSIC: Instrumental theme from Dilwale Dulhania Le Jayenge

CATHY VO: Ooh, this is from the movie? 

HARSHA VO: Yeah, it’s like the iconic tune I associate with DDLJ.

HARSHA VO: And DDLJ is actually now the longest-running film in Indian history. Like, one theater in Mumbai kept showing this movie every week from 1995 all the way until the first Covid lockdown in 2020.

CATHY VO: Wow, and people kept going!

HARSHA VO: Yeah (laughs) Even now, the theater’s opened back up and is showing DDLJ again.

HARSHA VO: The thing is though, a lot of the movie isn’t even set in India. It’s about two NRIs who fall in love while they’re on vacation in Europe. And then of course fight to stay together against their parents’ will.

HARSHA VO:  And I feel like my generation of Indian American, and South Asian American friends in general, grew up on these plotlines, and we really started to see this shift in the business model for big Bollywood films, away, from India itself and more towards people in the diaspora, especially because they were thought to be wealthier…. 

HARSHA VO: But since so many more knowledgeable people have written about this, I wanted to chat with a couple of them.

HARSHA VO: And by the way, if you’re not familiar with Bollywood, we’re gonna reference DDLJ, which now you know at least the basics of... And a couple other big movies from this post-90s, global Bollywood era.

HARSHA VO: One is called Kabhi Khushi Kabhie Gham, which is part romance, part family drama.

HARSHA VO: Another film you’ll hear about is Lagaan, which is kind of a period sports movie that we’ll get more into.

HARSHA VO: First I called up Yashica Dutt. She’s a writer and journalist who wrote a book called Coming Out as Dalit.

Yashica Dutt: I belong to a marginalized caste from India.

YD: The most “untouchable” caste, if that's one way to put it — formerly “untouchable” caste, the manual scavenging caste .

YD: A lot of the work that I do currently revolves around that.

HARSHA VO: And we connected with Mitali Desai, a writer and communications assistant.

HARSHA VO: She recently wrote a really great piece for Kajal Magazine called "Consuming Diaspora," which had this big, eye-grabbing quote, saying, “Representation doesn’t necessarily equal liberation .”

Mitali Desai: I'm from a mixed Indian and Jewish background. So something I think a lot about is sort of the intersection of those identities and building solidarity across and through identity.

Harsha: I kind of wanted to get into both of your experiences growing up.

Harsha: Mitali, I know you grew up here, and you've mentioned in your writing that your experiences were really shaped by, by growing in a mixed family and, like, your connections to India coming through your grandparents.

Harsha: But I'm curious — as you were growing up, did you feel this need to seek out visuals or stories, that felt like they represented you? And if so, where did you look for that?

MD: So I grew up in a very white community in rural Maine, that was sort of, you know, liberal-ish , but...

MD: There were definitely moments in my early childhood that I felt very distinctly, like, othered, without necessarily having the words for that.

MD: I grew up very close with my grandparents and on my dad's side. And I grew up hearing all of these stories about India, about their resistance to British colonial rule...

MD: And all of those stories really resonated, and I think I felt very much like I identified with the Indian side of my heritage, with India as this place that I'd never been to.

MD: And also with sort of just a feeling of outsiderness, which in retrospect, I think was justifiable considering the context I grew up in, but I also think that there's almost this like self exotification that happens...

MD: So I loved, like, pretending to be Princess Jasmine from Aladdin or kind of finding these characters that were from somewhere else. And it didn't even need to be from India, but just finding these outsider characters, these immigrant characters and sort of latching on a little bit to that sort of shared general identity, even though, you know, I was someone who was born in the States, growing up in the States, who really hadn't experienced anything like that.

MD: It was almost also a survival mechanism, sort of emotionally, where when I was younger, I wasn't going to be Cinderella.

MD: So I think I was always sort of looking to identify with the person or the people who are sort of the odd ones out... like this amateurish way of trying to create connection in a place where I wasn't really connected to a community of people who had similar experiences.

Harsha: I know Yashica, you grew up in India, you came here later as an immigrant. But you mentioned that, um, growing up Dalit was extraordinarily formative.

Harsha: Tell me a little bit about like, like, the media you consumed, and if you felt like this need to seek out stories of people who seemed like you... and, and where did you turn for that? 

YD: That's such an interesting question, Harsha, because this is a question that is only forced to people who belong to the diaspora, who grew up with severe lack of representation or not seeing themselves represented on screen and and, you know, television in books, literature, perhaps...

YD: As a Dalit person growing up in India, for me personally, that question did not carry enough charge, because my entire energy, since I was extremely young, was focused on hiding who I was. And it was with assimilating, with the dominant group passing as an upper caste person.

Harsha: Yeah.

YD: I did not have the faculty or the understanding to be outraged at what I was seeing and feel that I was not being represented enough.

YD: All I knew at that point was to conform and assimilate.

Harsha: I'm so glad that you brought that up because that's something that even as I was preparing this show, I was kind of thinking about this idea of like... 

Harsha: ...flattening of experiences around like an upper caste or a middle caste "coming to America" narrative.

Harsha: I like really remember, like, at school and stuff, like, not knowing English songs, but being like, “Oh! But I know Bollywood songs, and I can see these women that are, like, a little bit browner and they're beautified…”

Harsha: I was taught that, like, culture was something that was communicated through these, these, like, movies or TV shows or films, like I'd watch Indian soaps and they would have like, all these women, like fasting for Karva Chauth…

Harsha: Or like, there was, like, one Jain family on a TV soap once, and it was like a huge thing... cause they, like, said the name like Bhavya and like had like, like a specific type of Diwali...

Harsha: And I just remember being like, oh yeah, this is how I'm going to learn, like, my language and my customs, and I really look back on that now and think like, "Wow, that was, that was so messed up, and so weird..."

Harsha: I guess what I'm getting at is... With Bollywood, like what, what is a way, that we can even describe what it is and who it's for?

YD: There are lots of ways to look at Bollywood.

YD: At least in India, it has represented the aspirations of people in a realistic way.

YD: Like if you look at the cinema of the fifties, those films reflected that socialist sensibility that was deeply a part of Indian culture in the fifties, because we had just obtained independence. These ideas of equality, fraternity, Liberty freedom from cost freedom from religious persecution.

YD: That were the current ideals.

YD: And cinema reflected that a lot of the movies that we were based around revolution, were based around thinking about how we relate to our society...

YD: In the nineties, I would say with DDLJ...

YD: That is when it started this whole pivot towards looking at the diaspora, looking at the NRI audience.

YD: Because people understood that, you know, a lot of people had moved to the U.S., moved to the UK in the eighties and the nineties, and then, you know, they had the money. 

YD: Indians were very poor at that time, so where is the money coming from? Where is the money for concerts coming from? The concerts and the tours and award functions? So that's the whole industry pivoted there.

YD: So if you look at that there is a lot of cinema that I guess stem from a need of representation... but it also became a kind of aspirational value for the Indians who were living in India, because we didn't live in those kinds of houses or consume that kind of fashion. At that time, at least.

MD: It's interesting, because I feel like so much of the way you interact with Indian culture —  whatever that means to you — in the states, I feel like it, a lot of it often depends on when you came here and under what circumstances...

MD: My grandparents came 50 years ago. And when my dad and my aunt were growing up, there wasn't a bhangra dance team, no one was taking like bharatanatyam classes.

MD: There were. You know, the same sort of almost, like, external rituals around Indianness. And so much of it was about assimilation.

MD: It was, you know, my grandparents got a Christmas tree when they came to the states, they're both Hindu, and they were like, "Well, we're in America and this is what they do here, and this is our Christmas tree with our, like, little Ganesha ornaments on it."

MD: In the eighties, right? When there's this bigger wave of immigration , there's kind of more opportunity to find community in a different way...

MD: Like people who were, who were raised under those circumstances, where there was this sort of pressure to stay Indian in America, like, "You've come here now you have to hold on so tight, so you don't lose it."

MD: And then I think from there you get more sort of extracurriculars around being Indian, almost.

MD: The Bollywood movies are sort of, I think in some ways, a little bit of an extension of that, of this feeling of holding onto something and not losing a connection.

MD: Whether it's Bollywood, whether it's certain foods or certain products or Henna, or, you know, what you wear to Diwali every year with your family and kind of finding these objects in the symbols and looking, almost looking at them to guide what it actually means to be Indian in America.

MD: For me, the example I always think about is food. Because I mean, my family is very food centric. There's just a lot of eating every time we see each other.

MD: I was sort of, I got to this point of being like, all I'm doing is eating.

MD: I was also just sort of thinking about who I was as a consumer in general, and… and feeling like I wanted to act more instead of sort of take things in.

MD: I guess this was last year now with the farmers protests in India , that sort of really, like, collided those ideas, right?

MD: That the food that we eat here that is so symbolic and reminiscent of home and representative of this bigger cultural identity…

MD: That comes from somewhere, and there are people who get it here to us, and that's political, and that has to do with human rights and it has to do with identity and it has to do everything with globalization...

MD: Instead of just thinking about food as like, oh, I'm passively consuming this thing. I started thinking about it more politically, when those protests were and still are happening… just thinking more about like, “How, who makes it so that I can have these connections, really?”

YD: I need to add something to that because what Mitali said was wonderful and it sparked the strain of thought: that, you know, this idea that we seek representation through what we see on screen, through cinema, through television, is a deeply capitalist import.

Harsha: Yeah.

YD: And I can say that because I sort of gained consciousness in the nineties, and India at that time was just opening its markets to hyper capitalism that we see back home now.

Harsha: Yeah.

YD: You know, I had family members and my mom who would be very excited to get the same haircut as Bollywood actresses and get the same salarkamis, you know, what people were saying on screen, but we didn't have to realize our identities through those figures that we saw on screen.

YD: Now, of course, that is completely changed now, in 2021 in India, everybody needs to see themselves realizing the vision of what they're watching on screen.

YD: So I just wanted to make that clear that, you know, how we want to realize ourselves through television and what we, that this culture of being on TV, being marketable, is a deeply capitalist import.

YD: Kabhi Khushi Kabhie Gham — half of that movie is set in London !

Harsha: Yeah (laughs).

YD: So, you know, if you think of that, Bollywood is a very clever way to impart or disseminate a certain kind of sensibility: Rich, upper caste, diaspora, thin for women, light-skinned, following a certain Hindu tradition — there is a whole song about Karva Chauth in K3G, Kabhi Khushi Kabhie Gham.

YD: You know, you talk about Karva Chauth or, or Hum Dil De Chuke Sanam has a whole Karva Chauth song.

Harsha: (Laughs)

YD: You know, if, if you look at the history of Karva Chauth in India, it really wasn't an important festival before Bollywood made it .

Harsha: Yeah.

YD: So I'm just saying the culture in Bollywood has shaped sensibilities, always, and it is now being used to also perpetuate a fascist sensibility, a sensibility that is very majoritarianism, led, you know, pro Hindu...

Yashica Dutt: You know, look at the cinema that's coming out, that's being championed by the right-wing forces.

YD: We have to be critical, especially the diaspora, because they do have financial power.

YD: They do have, you know, cultural power, and they have to exercise that sensibly.

MD: Well, it's funny that you mentioned Kabhi Khushi Kabhie Gham, because that was like the Bollywood movie to me. That, like, was. My Bollywood experience. We watched it so many times when I was a kid...

MD: ...and I was really young and I remember just loving it.

MD: I was like... "Love is when you have seven outfit changes in one song and you're on a mountain and pyramids and then you're in the ocean, and if somebody doesn't, like, chase a train through a flower field for you, then they clearly aren't that into you."

MD: So it was formative in that way, but I think, like, it was so beloved to me, cause it's so much fun.

MD: Like those big dance scenes and the music And I thought those women were so beautiful to the point that I like I wished that I looked like a Bollywood actress kind of from the other way. I wish I looked more Indian. I wish I looked like that.

Harsha: Right.

MD: Even as now I can sort of be so much more critical of these films of the contexts in which they're created and what they represent, especially, like, in India's political climate today…

MD: There's still this part of me that I think feels a little romantic about them.

MD: There's this sort of over-the-top-ness, there's like kind of optimism, of like, a big musical number a big dance number, that... it is charming. Like, it's a seductive type of medium.

MD: And I think even as critical as I am now, it's still hard to sort of, like, let go of the fun of that too.

YD: I really liked what you said Mitali, because I don't think the idea is to not like what we like. I mean, ultimately... especially for the diaspora.

YD: This is a representation of the diaspora.

YD: Kal Ho Naa Ho is in Queens, New York .

YD: You know, so people are looking at themselves and saying, "This is me."

YD: And you know, I like Bollywood movies!

YD: My favorite Bollywood movie is Mr. India, which is from the eighties .

YD: And one of the reasons I love it so much it's because it was on TV all the time when I was young. And it's just a truly fascinating movie.

Mitali: (Laughs)

YD: And ultimately, they're created as an escape. Right? They're created by the producers and the directors to give an escape to the people.

YD: In fact, this is something that's very commonly discussed in interviews, where directors have gone on record, maybe not anymore, but definitely in the nineties, when they said: Listen, this public is poor. This public is marginalized. The public is oppressed. There is extreme income inequality in India. People don't have jobs... so let this Bollywood fantasy be the escape that they need.

YD: We have to appreciate that there is something extremely charming, extremely lovable, about seeing this tradition that belongs to Indians, which is now an export all over the world.

YD: But at the same time, that needs to also be held accountable. We hold things accountable that we love, and that’s —

YD: I think when people criticize these ideas, I, I feel that a lot of it comes from a place of love.

Harsha: Yeah, a hundred percent.

MD: Yeah. I think it's sort of an interesting thing to think about, like, what could Bollywood look like?

MD: I think that the film industry of a place is sort of a mirror into the power dynamics of that place and globally too, but... 

MD: It's I think it's just interesting to think about what media we deserve, that we all deserve, across caste, across faith, across, like, regions in the country, and, and just thinking about how do we take this sort of like behemoth of the industry and really enact, like, some change, when, um, there's so much money and there's so much power and it's sort of been like fossilized into this big industry.

Harsha: Yeah.

MD: But maybe it means that we go outside of the industry, too, and it's about promoting  alternative ways to, to tell these stories too.

MD: And I think that, you know executives kind of feel like they're under pressure a little bit? Like they're like, "OK, we have to get woke! Overnight! Now!"

MD: And I think it's interesting way that's happened — telling these stories about people but not actually casting people who have those identities or experiences in the movies...

MD: There's this short film; I forget who it's by, but it's called I think The Discrete Lives of Savarnas.

MD: Yashica, have you seen it?

YD: Not yet.

MD: I watched it pretty recently. And it's sort of this like... Dark comedy about three young filmmakers, they're making a movie, and they have a character who's Dalit in it, and they can't find an actor.

MD: And they can't find an actor, and they can't find an actor, cause they're looking for someone who — you know, the listing is, quote, "looks like they're Dalit."

Harsha: Mmm.

MD: And it's sort of this, like, comedy of errors, of people who are so blind to their own privilege that they just can't figure out, like, "Why won't this actor mysteriously appear who will fulfill our need of being a token for this identity?” Without being from this identity.

MD: And then we actually do I think at the end they meet someone who is Dalit, but they're like so shocked because she's beautiful .

MD: And they're like, "Well, you're too pretty for the role."

YD: I've talked about this a little bit in my book and earlier Bollywood characters who were Dalit for called "dukhee." And "dukhee," in Hindi, means “sad” .

YD: And they didn't even afford them the grace and integrity of a name that will be their own. They just were defined by their state, their existence, which according to the other caste filmmakers was perpetually sad. 

YD: Not as victims of systemic classism, but sad.

YD: And then you have Lagaan, one of the most beloved movies in India and by the diaspora, because it made it all the way to the Oscars in the foreign film category , right?

YD: Lagaan is about a cricket match between the British government and the Indians. It is in a pre-colonial era, and the character that is the "lower caste," quote unquote, character is called "Kachra” .

YD: Which means “Rubbish,” which means “Garbage,” you know?

YD: And it's the same trope that he has to be magical for him to be accepted.

YD: And the pivotal ball is thrown by the so-called “Kachra,” and you know, the narrative the director try to spin was that we need these talented Dalits to really make us who we are.

YD: But really, I mean, Dalits don't need to be talented to be human.

Harsha: Exactly.

Mitali: Yeah.

YD: We just are. And we don't need that kind of super humanity to qualify our equality.

YD: I would, you know, like to draw attention, however, to Dalit filmmakers.

Harsha: Yeah.

YD: And Dalit directors who have become so prominent in the past five, six years, whether it's Pa. Ranjith... and it was Pa. Ranjith's production company that made available The Discrete Charm of Savarnas for streaming; it's called Neelum productions.

YD: Leave it to Dalit filmmakers to do that representation, because if you do it, do it well, do it respectfully. Or don't.

Harsha: Like, we really have, like, unpacked the power of movies and the power of media, and, like, how we related to these titles growing up.

Harsha: It's been great to talk with you both, because I feel like we're all just, like, movie lovers...

Harsha: What would you say that this role of stories, and like, how powerful they can be, shows us about our needs as people? And where else can we fill those needs, if it isn't going to always be media?

MD: I don't remember who said this but there's this idea that the fact that we dream and that's somewhat universal speaks to a universal need for stories.

MD: There is something that is both empowering and, like, honors your agency as, as a person about creating stories. And there is also something that is so powerful about kind of like the stillness and smallness of yourself when you are looking or reading or absorbing someone else's story.

MD: That power I think is, itself, amoral because we have stories and narratives that lead us to division and the fascism we’re seeing now — like, that's all narrative.

MD: But I think that also storytelling is the most powerful way for us to understand ourselves, to understand each other, to sort of give space to create these connections...

YD: It's very well said Mitali. I couldn't agree more.

YD: Stories also... make us understand that there are people who don't necessarily share our exact experiences, but we still are able to relate to them.

YD: And on the other hand, there are people who have never seen themselves represented. And that those stories let them know that there are others like them out there.

YD: That they're not alone in going through this experience, especially when it pertains to caste experiences of, of shame, of trauma, of fear, of humiliation, of abuse and discrimination.

YD: When those stories are put out there in a respectful manner, then you know, you create greater solidarity, then you create greater comfort and ease for people who exist at the margins.

YD: All of us, especially those who are part of the diaspora now, need to understand that we have to engage with Indian cinema in a critical way. 

MUSIC: An insistent Motown-style song begins

YD: We cannot be content with representation alone.

Credits

CATHY VO: This episode was produced by Julia Shu, Alex Chun, and Harsha Nahata.

HARSHA VO: We were edited by James Boo and Julia Shu.

CATHY VO: Fact checking by Harsha Nahata and Alex Chun.

HARSHA VO: Sound mix by Timothy Lou Ly.

CATHY VO: Music by Blue Dot Sessions and Epidemic Sound. And our theme music is by Dorian Love.

CATHY VO: Self Evident is a Studiotobe production. Our Executive Producer is Ken Ikeda.

HARSHA VO: This episode was made with support from PRX and the Google Podcasts Creator Program... 

CATHY VO: ...and of course, our listener community.

HARSHA VO: More resources, and a transcript of this episode, are available at selfevidentshow.com.

CATHY VO: I'm Cathy Erway. Let's talk soon.

CATHY VO: Until then, keep sharing Asian America’s stories.

MUSIC: Motown-style beat ends

Post-Roll Promo: Listener Drive Message

JAMES VO: Alright folks. One more time.

JAMES VO: We’ve got some beautiful gifts — featuring original artwork from Robert Liu-Trujillo — for anyone who donates to our annual listener drive.

JAMES VO: Every dollar you give will be matched until the end of 2021, so go to selfevidentshow.com/supporters right now, to double your impact and help us pay our OnlyFans bill — I mean, help us tell Asian America’s stories. See ya later.